Comments on: Death Penalties http://razakius.com/games/game-design/death-penalties/ MMO player, Gamer, struggling Game Designer & Writer Tue, 27 Mar 2012 20:26:18 +0100 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: Razakius http://razakius.com/games/game-design/death-penalties/comment-page-1/#comment-120 Razakius Thu, 04 Dec 2008 04:06:16 +0000 http://razakius.com/?p=490#comment-120 Notice however, that I do mention that in a game like EQ2 (which has similar though more difficult to get loot than WoW) that it wouldn't work outright to just start a commutative damage scheme and that I also don't necessarily agree with losing all items on a corpse run. There are alternatives... like I mentioned having more severe xp debt unless you recover your corpse is quite good as it is certainly something you could just leave behind if you don't feel like it. I also am quite fond of putting damage to where strikes occur and then lowering the amount of damaged based on the quality of an item, thus lowering the loss of all that raid gear that takes so much time to get in the first place. I am not looking for death to the extent of Eve which I think is fine in that particular system, just not elsewhere, but then again I think EQ2 & WoW's death penalties are far too weak and need to be amped up a bit because it means nothing to die. I don't think that we need to lose the world to make death meaningful, I just think there is in fact a happy medium. And don't misconstrue what I'm saying. Fun to one person is not fun to another... for example IMHO corpse run = fun, dieing 50 times for a boss in an hour = not so much even if the death is meaningless. One thing that I do think is universal is the idea that if there is no risk there is no reward. The fact that you can die 50 times and then get past it on time 51 displays the lack of risk and really diminishes the reward IMHO which is why I don't find it fun. I think there needs to be a balance striken which has yet to be found in any game I have played thus far... WoW, EQ, or Eve... they all tend to suck. Notice however, that I do mention that in a game like EQ2 (which has similar though more difficult to get loot than WoW) that it wouldn’t work outright to just start a commutative damage scheme and that I also don’t necessarily agree with losing all items on a corpse run. There are alternatives… like I mentioned having more severe xp debt unless you recover your corpse is quite good as it is certainly something you could just leave behind if you don’t feel like it. I also am quite fond of putting damage to where strikes occur and then lowering the amount of damaged based on the quality of an item, thus lowering the loss of all that raid gear that takes so much time to get in the first place.

I am not looking for death to the extent of Eve which I think is fine in that particular system, just not elsewhere, but then again I think EQ2 & WoW’s death penalties are far too weak and need to be amped up a bit because it means nothing to die. I don’t think that we need to lose the world to make death meaningful, I just think there is in fact a happy medium.

And don’t misconstrue what I’m saying. Fun to one person is not fun to another… for example IMHO corpse run = fun, dieing 50 times for a boss in an hour = not so much even if the death is meaningless. One thing that I do think is universal is the idea that if there is no risk there is no reward. The fact that you can die 50 times and then get past it on time 51 displays the lack of risk and really diminishes the reward IMHO which is why I don’t find it fun. I think there needs to be a balance striken which has yet to be found in any game I have played thus far… WoW, EQ, or Eve… they all tend to suck.

]]> By: chris http://razakius.com/games/game-design/death-penalties/comment-page-1/#comment-119 chris Thu, 04 Dec 2008 03:53:14 +0000 http://razakius.com/?p=490#comment-119 I agree with Wan Kong Yew, eve's system works really well, but it just doesnt fit into wow or war for instance, if you make the death penalty more punitive - you have to make getting the itmes easier, or there is little point in getting them, Adding more grind to these games cannot be a good thing, they are meant to be fun and arcady so dont you dare give mmo developers an excuse to make players work even harder for things - if you want a game where death means more than 2 minutes, play eve - just never risk anything you can't afford to lose & trust no one. I agree with Wan Kong Yew, eve’s system works really well, but it just doesnt fit into wow or war for instance, if you make the death penalty more punitive – you have to make getting the itmes easier, or there is little point in getting them, Adding more grind to these games cannot be a good thing, they are meant to be fun and arcady so dont you dare give mmo developers an excuse to make players work even harder for things – if you want a game where death means more than 2 minutes, play eve – just never risk anything you can’t afford to lose & trust no one.

]]> By: Wan Kong Yew http://razakius.com/games/game-design/death-penalties/comment-page-1/#comment-118 Wan Kong Yew Wed, 03 Dec 2008 06:51:08 +0000 http://razakius.com/?p=490#comment-118 Heh, I'd suggest joining the quartertothree forums if you're interested in discussing this sort of thing. I know that there are plenty of other gaming forums, but really, you won't find higher quality game discussion anywhere else, considering how many people who work in the game industry post there on a semi-regular basis. So I'm basically echoing the qt3 consensus here in agreeing with Andrew Mayer (http://www.andrewpmayer.com/video-games/game-business/you-dont-know-what-you-really-want/) that games are all about "enjoyable frustration". Note the presence of both words. As Tom Chick notes (http://fidgit.com/archives/2008/12/non-gamer-cant-get-into-world.php), if you're not going to frustrate the player at all, then you shouldn't be making a game. On the other hand, if the type of frustration you're introducing isn't enjoyable, you end up with a game that's disliked. Example: corpse runs in MMOs = not enjoyable. Continually dying while trying to figure out how to defeat a boss in an MMO = enjoyable. One game that has recently stirred some debate on qt3 is the new Prince of Persia (http://www.quartertothree.com/game-talk/showthread.php?t=49174). In case you don't know, in this version of the game, you can't actually fall to your death. A giant hand scoops you up if you're going to fall and deposits you where you started. So, basically there's no risk in jumping. On the hand, you still have to keep trying until you succeed to proceed with the game, so it's in effect a kind of stylized quick save and reload function. Am I cool with it? Absolutely. Heh, I’d suggest joining the quartertothree forums if you’re interested in discussing this sort of thing. I know that there are plenty of other gaming forums, but really, you won’t find higher quality game discussion anywhere else, considering how many people who work in the game industry post there on a semi-regular basis.

So I’m basically echoing the qt3 consensus here in agreeing with Andrew Mayer (http://www.andrewpmayer.com/video-games/game-business/you-dont-know-what-you-really-want/) that games are all about “enjoyable frustration”. Note the presence of both words. As Tom Chick notes (http://fidgit.com/archives/2008/12/non-gamer-cant-get-into-world.php), if you’re not going to frustrate the player at all, then you shouldn’t be making a game. On the other hand, if the type of frustration you’re introducing isn’t enjoyable, you end up with a game that’s disliked.

Example: corpse runs in MMOs = not enjoyable. Continually dying while trying to figure out how to defeat a boss in an MMO = enjoyable.

One game that has recently stirred some debate on qt3 is the new Prince of Persia (http://www.quartertothree.com/game-talk/showthread.php?t=49174). In case you don’t know, in this version of the game, you can’t actually fall to your death. A giant hand scoops you up if you’re going to fall and deposits you where you started. So, basically there’s no risk in jumping. On the hand, you still have to keep trying until you succeed to proceed with the game, so it’s in effect a kind of stylized quick save and reload function. Am I cool with it? Absolutely.

]]> By: Razakius http://razakius.com/games/game-design/death-penalties/comment-page-1/#comment-117 Razakius Mon, 01 Dec 2008 13:01:46 +0000 http://razakius.com/?p=490#comment-117 How is it a good thing that there is no risk in any given event? How is that even fun? How is it a good thing that there is no risk in any given event? How is that even fun?

]]> By: Wan Kong Yew http://razakius.com/games/game-design/death-penalties/comment-page-1/#comment-116 Wan Kong Yew Mon, 01 Dec 2008 02:57:57 +0000 http://razakius.com/?p=490#comment-116 I have to disagree with you in general. I think that the ever weakening of death penalties in MMOs is a good trend, and from observation of the player base, a fairly popular one. However, I do like Eve Online's death penalty: you die, you lose your ship and everything in it, though if you choose to risk it, you can come back and scavenge your wreck for parts. But it's something that only really makes sense in Eve because the game teaches you early on that everything is expendable. In other MMOs, players cling to their ill-gotten loot too tightly to make that possible. I have to disagree with you in general. I think that the ever weakening of death penalties in MMOs is a good trend, and from observation of the player base, a fairly popular one. However, I do like Eve Online’s death penalty: you die, you lose your ship and everything in it, though if you choose to risk it, you can come back and scavenge your wreck for parts. But it’s something that only really makes sense in Eve because the game teaches you early on that everything is expendable. In other MMOs, players cling to their ill-gotten loot too tightly to make that possible.

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