The Long History of Twinking & Soulbinding

Twinking is not really a thing anymore in modern MMOs, so I think it is worth explaining exactly what twinking is. Twinking is when you give lower level characters, whether your alts or friends, high level gear in order to give the lower level character an advantage in moving through the game.

In early MMOs, this was a big problem because higher level characters had more money, had more gear and had stuff to spare to give the lower level characters so this was easy for them. The problem for the game though is that it tends to ruin the power curve. Games are designed to take X amount of time to get from point A to point B and MMOs in particular are being designed to stretch out the amount of time it takes for players to get bored. They don’t want a player’s attention for a month or two…. they want it for a few years straight.

The initial method in which to stop twinking was actually the most effective, but not flawless. That was… the level requirement (and sort of class requirements… not that an item was limited to only certain classes, but that only 1 class could use an item). The level requirement is pretty simple… you have a powerful late game weapon, you make it have a requirement that it can only be used by late game players by adding a requirement that the player needs to be at the level cap in order to use it. This solves the extreme version of twinking pretty easily.

Now this method does actually kind of break immersion… if I know how to use swords, there’s really no difference between swords, they are all pretty much the same. This isn’t entirely true, of course… but the differences in swords are minute and have more to do with different types of swords than specific swords… for instance if you know how to use a Rapier, you may not know how to use a Great Sword… but that’s extreme. There are also minor differences to builds within the same class, but even so, you might have a minor disadvantage when first getting used to the sword but once you do, you’ll be fine.

It’s interesting to note that there have been methods to merge the level req with a more immersive and natural behavior. The first that I can think of is Dark Age of Camelot, which allowed players to use items higher than their level but the item was under-powered until you hit the weapon’s level… this actually kind of sounds like what I said in the previous paragraph, that was unintentional. I can’t remember if it was also DAoC or another game, but another concept has been to have durability go down faster if you were below the required level, which is a similar concept just done a different way.

The problem is, it doesn’t solve it completely. Not all items are the same even if the requirements are. If you have have 100 levels, and you are max level but want to help a level 5 player out so that they have an easier time…. it’s quite easy to buy them level 5 super rare super powerful items that aren’t easy for them to get due to rarity. So twinking generally still happens.

This lead to the birth of soulbinding. Soulbinding is when an item can only be used by the character it is soulbound to, and this soulbinding usually occurs on the character acquiring the item (though there are games, such as GW2, that has some items soulbound on use). This method instantly takes away twinking… because… obviously you can’t give the powerful items to other players. I believe (though could be wrong) that this idea originated with EverQuest, but was expanded upon with newer MMOs and even within EQ. Originally, it tended to only get done on super rare items and quest items, but the idea of soulbinding has expanded exponentially. There has also been an addition of Account Bound since its inception, meaning that you can trade it between characters within the same account.

I do think that the idea of soulbinding has been expanded upon for a reason other than to stop twinking to be honest. It has become a staple largely to help deal with the high level economy. The problem modern MMOs have is that because there is no durability and no death penalty in most games, there is no way for items to be removed from the game. Raising level cap fixes this issue… but that creates an issue of forcing developers to create a lot of in game content in order to appease all the players at a now higher level. The problem here is that players tend to move faster than developers. I know in WoW… players tend to reach the new level cap within a week (oftentimes days)… now it may take them a month or two past that to start getting the best gear. But once they get that gear they can start twinking other players with the best gear who now also can start twinking other players when they start getting duplicates and so forth. Soooo soulbinding to the rescue. A hardcore player may be able to get the best gear in the game rapidly, but they are going to punish themselves instead of the developers for that so that other players will still need to work for it, giving the developers far more time before the remaining 95% of the player population starts receiving their max gear.

There is, of course, a negative side to soulbinding gear in this fashion. And that’s player interaction. While twinking, overall, is a negative when done prolifically, it isn’t necessarily all bad. Players generally don’t just give each other their best gear, they sell it more often. Generally, straight up giving is held for guildmates and friends. And in reality, this is what an economy actually is… buying and selling things. By soulbinding everything, a game is getting created where the level economy and the boredom economy is taking precedence over the actual economy. And if I’m going to be honest, there are actual players out there who are more interested in the actual economy.

There is also the case for gold farming… by making items soulbound, gold farmers cannot farm high value items and sell them as easily and thus flood the market with those items. But there are better options at dealing with gold farmers and the reality is that game development companies just don’t want to. As evidenced by the fact that gold farmers still very much exist and are as prevalent as ever, and game developers stopped dealing with them completely outside of adding more and more soulbound items.

What I’m trying to say is that, switching to a system that relies heavily on soulbinding in order to stop twinking, keep players interested because they have to actually get their gear, and help prevent gold farmers… is yet another system that is going into place that interrupts player interaction in a negative way. And ultimately, the genre is COMPLETELY built around player interaction. There’s a ton of systems that have been added to the modern MMORPG that has disrupted player interactions, and this one is actually rather minor unless taken to an extreme. But it is an avenue all the same and does have negative repercussions that, I would argue, are actually MORE difficult to fix than the actual issues you are trying to fix by adding in soulbinding in the first place. You could, theoretically, just add another way to force players to interact in its place, but it would likely feel more forced and players resent being forced to interact. And really, nobody is doing this because it feels like more and more in the genre, all they are trying to build are single player games with a built in chat room.

Few games have gotten even close to UO in terms of tradeskills

Even past the ‘interactions” concept, making the most powerful items in the game soulbound, completely borks the idea of tradeskills. It continues to amaze me that game development companies continue to include tradeskills in their games while putting in such low effort into making them work, and more often then not making them specifically not work. Instead, because of something like soulbinding, we often end up with generic tradeskills that must be done by players themselves, rather than buying a tradeskill player’s goods as is supposed to be the case.

I will say that, I am not against soulbinding in general… and I’m certainly not against level requirements. I actually think a lot of early soulbinding usage was appropriate. If game devs build in a system in which to get legendary gear that takes a character a long time to acquire and these items are supposed to be the hallmarks of a character’s life… it’s totally appropriate to soulbind that item. I also have concepts in my brain to allow the player to choose soulbinding as a way to pay off positive attributes on their items, which I may or may not get into at a later date. I feel like soulbinding has its place, but it needs to be considered when it is used as it really does take away fun from the game to do it.

So I want to go into a little more how Guild Wars 2 is addressing this because I think that GW2 is proving to be an extreme case of soulbinding in particular. I also want to go into some thoughts that I have on what I would do in order to combat some of these issues without delving into the usual methods. But I feel that this post is long enough, so I’m going to split these into two other posts that will be released in the future. I think this is actually going to be something I do going forward… I will have one post giving a background of a concept and give arguments as to why I like or dislike certain aspects, follow up with a case study of the concept (good or bad), and then followup again with my thoughts on what could be done in a potential game.

MMO State of Mind

MMORPGs are really the genre of my heart. While I do love RPGs and strategy games, I always want to return to MMOs and hope to find something to sink years into and find new friends to chat with. It is a genre I feel so strongly about that for over 15 years I have been designing my own MMORPG in my head and on paper just for my own mental play and have even written articles on this blog about my thoughts. I have considered at many points creating my own on my own and have made minor attempts at it through the years in various ways.

Yet looking at this blog, I haven’t mentioned MMO’s for 3 years… an article where I talk about FFXIV… before that… 2012… where I talk about upcoming MMOs that looked interesting (only Elder Scrolls Online really worked out and I never played it)…. and it has seemingly been about 10 years since I really talked seriously about MMOs from a design/analytical standpoint.

Part of this, I realize, is that over the last 5 to 10 years, I really just have vacated the blog sphere entirely. Life etc… The other part of it is that I have also almost completely vacated the MMO genre due to the WoWification of it. The FFXIV spurt of articles that I wrote came because I was really jonesing for the genre so I went to the best available game, which fortunately or unfortunately was FFXIV.

Since about… August… I’ve been playing Guild Wars 2. I have played this game periodically on and off since near launch. I think the most the game has ever hit for me previously was the 3 to 4 month timeframe. I did take a break from GW2 for about 4 to 6 weeks over December and January, but I seem to be back in… We are now sitting at probably… 8 or 9 months of play which is fairly substantial for me these days.

So this coupled with the recent announcement that GW2 will get a third expansion and so I’ve been contemplating things I’d like to see in the game for that expansion, coupled with a lot of downtime due to Coronavirus… and I’ve contemplating game design for MMOs again of late. To add to it, last year about this time, I got a promotion at my job where I am developing programs with Java, and while i’m still new at it… I think I’m pretty freaking good at it and so the concept that I could program my own MMO is resurfacing as a very real possibility.

So… short story long… I kind of want to get some of these mental discussions back into blog form with the extra time that I have been granted. The one thing doing this really does for me is that it helps me focus. Because I can take a single topic. Talk about it and my ideas on it. Really dig in… and because it’s getting written, i don’t circle around it quite as much.

Who Did I Used to Be?

In recent weeks, I find myself very interested in a woman that I am somewhat friends with. She is beautiful, funny, and very much the most intelligent person I have ever met. And more important than anything, I have a great time sitting and talking to her. She’s not perfect but, she’s the first real interest I’ve had in a few years.

I am in a situation where I find myself contemplating how to cross the gap and ask her out. I actually think there is a possibility she is somewhat interested in me, but am extremely scared of the rejection, I’m scared of losing another friend, and I don’t know… just scared. This is really a culmination of a few really bad experiences over the last 7 or 8 years which have left me frightened, depressed, and with an extremely low self esteem.

But it occurred to me tonight… I used to be able to attract women who were, in my opinion, much better looking than me. Just much better than me in many ways. I can name in particular 5 women 10+ years ago, 2 of which went beyond just friends (the other 2 I wasn’t really interested in, 1 the timing just never was right). These girls were gorgeous, varying levels of intelligence and really good people.

But then the last 2 serious interests happened and really those 2 were doomed from the start. They were both married, 1 of them didn’t even live in this country. Yes, I was a bad person for being interested in married women, no I didn’t have a choice in the matter, I didn’t want to like them. On top of these doomed relationships I had bad video game dynamics with both of them in the fact that I met them both playing video games which had very toxic environments where back stabbing friends was promoted and desired.. and well I kind of entered a perfect storm of bad where my interest in women was being coupled with a paranoia perpetuated by games.

But then… I return to the thought… what was I before this period of my life where I could attract women fairly well and I had the confidence in myself to go after them and how do i get back there?

To figure this out, I kind of wanted to go back and look at the words of how I talked even if it was casual, but alas, trying to find 10+ year old emails… that shit ain’t easy. I used yahoo (I believe) at the time, and they only seem to store 1 year’s worth of emails unless you purposely save them, and It looks like my gmail account only went back to 2007 (I also recognize, that even with the first of the two women, I didn’t use gmail, I used a secondary email account for privacy). Sooo I think back on my personality as my flawed memory can go…

Sarcasm… I’ve always been a sarcastic fellow with a quick wit. I do think this has been one of my primary assets in life as I have always had a capability to make people laugh. And I still can. I do think that due to my job with 12 other men in a call center that my humor has gotten more juvenile as I have gotten older (weirdly enough), and consists of a lot more sexual jokes and that’s what she said jokes. Easy to make people sort of smile, but they are cheap laughs. Maybe I should lower those more as I don’t think they are a great look for me (also they aren’t good for flirting, I used to be able to better direct the sexual vibe into real flirting in a way I’m not good at anymore…

Flirting… I think it’s worth moving onto flirting… I never was spectacular at flirting, not going to pretend otherwise, but I did enjoy the flirt, and it’s something I don’t do almost at all anymore, especially with girls I am interested with… it’s really bad. The girl I am into now for instance has on multiple occasions has gone into a sexual place and I have basically stopped it in its tracks not really knowing at all what to say, but previously if a girl I was into said something even remotely sexual, I would very quickly apply my wit in a quick and powerful way and with a slight grin on my face and it would start play… In particular I remember one girl where we would flirt with each other in regards to sticking your tongue out meaning that you were interested in kissing.

Self Esteem – Ok Look… I have always been very self deprecating and there have always been a lot of things about me that I have been self conscious about (weight in particular). If I am going to be honest, I was pretty self confident before despite that. I didn’t think I was perfect by a long stretch, but I was smart, funny, hard working, and I even at times felt like I was pretty good looking (looking back at pics from that time… I disagree I ever was lol). Self Esteem took a DEEP dive in the last 10 years… I don’t think I’m anything other than funny (I don’t even think I’m particularly smart anymore). And I don’t really know how to get back there. All I can really do is work on improving myself and hope that it helps with my self esteem. And… fake it…

Intelligence… Yeah I still think I am smart…. I don’t think I’m as smart as I used to be. I don’t remember things the way I used to. This may actually have led to my biggest self esteem drop as this was the thing I liked the best about me and so to see myself as less smart has definitely hurt. I have absolutely no idea on how to improve brain functions but this is something i need to look into badly. I think I’m going to start by actively reading books, something I haven’t really done since college. I think this will at least help get my vocabulary back into shape…

Anger… Finally anger has been an increasing problem in my life. I was a very nice guy, and really in my heart I know I still am extremely nice. I tend to think well of everyone even if I understand they will likely disappoint me. But between terrible jobs, terrible friend experiences, and growing pain…. I am quick to anger. This was actually something first noticed by me due to the customer support job back in oh 2009. But I think with the other bad things that have started happening in my life this has gotten worse. I need to fix this first and foremost and I have started going to therapy. I think if there is one thing that I fixed that could potentially help me get women and friends again, it’s fixing this. I think I can be the kind soul again who will do anything for his friends, and give freely to anyone who asks again.

Amazon Wishlist

I’m going to be honest, the Wishlist on is probably THE biggest feature they have. And as it turns out this is the most difficult feature to find anywhere else to any sort of decency. I actually was surprised at how difficult it was to find an alternative, and even what I landed on, I’m not particularly happy with. What I wanted from a wishlist site was the ability to add from any source, preferably a search function so that I didn’t have to go to websites to add it, and an image of each item on the list. On top of that, I also wanted the ability for guests to mark it for removal without having the guest log in and without the owner getting notified. I wanted the site to do price comparisons of various online stores to list the best price available. And I wanted the ability to make categories and subcategories. This was a lot to ask for, and I only got a fraction of it. One of the predominant issues with almost every site was that you really couldn’t allow a guest to mark an item as purchased, and even if they allowed that, the guest would have to sign up to the random site which I also wasn’t fond of. There were also issues with sites not allowing multiple wishlists (this seemed ridiculous to me). And no site had the ability to price check various websites. Some sites also required you to manually upload pictures which just wasn’t cool either. The site I landed on to do my wishlists was Pinterest. I know, it took me a week or two of research to land on Pinterest?!?! Well yeah. Pinterest isn’t a great option either. But it is super easy to add stuff to lists, it’s easy to make subcategories on the list, it’s easy for random others to view the list, and you can also create private lists which only friends and family can view. It has no pricing capability what so ever and no ability for people to mark things as done, but these were things not many sites had anyway. And let’s be honest, the last one isn’t something Amazon has either. They don’t even price compare on their own site. They only tell you the price of the item you selected, so if that item is listed multiple times, the other versions will be completely ignored. I did have a moment where I decided to look up who exactly owns Pinterest. I thought at some point someone may have bought the company out, and thought that company was Facebook. But as it turns out Pinterest is privately owned, I think I was thinking of Instagram.¬† So know that if you buy into Pinterest, you aren’t giving your data to a different big company, they are their own thing.
If you decide to take up Pinterest as a wishlist software (which I don’t think I’m the only one who does this), I would strongly recommend downloading their browser extension that throws the pinterest logo on every image for easy adding. This makes it so that you can go to a store and peruse and be like “I want that” just as easily as you could peruse Amazon, except now your choices can be anywhere on the net, not just on the juggernaut.

Amazon – Easy Alternatives

Let’s get the ball rolling in this by talking about the easy ones and get those out of the. Because there are certainly some Amazon alternatives that are glaringly obvious.

Amazon Video Alternatives

So this is probably the easiest thing to find an alternative to. Amazon Prime has its own streaming service, but it clearly is not a focus, it’s more of an add-on. The reason I say this is because the Originals are sub-par and they don’t get a ton of third-party support either. However, Amazon does have deals with HBO & BBC to show their older backlogs, although neither of these is all encompassing. (As an example, they don’t have the very excellent Coupling TV series that ran on BBC from 2000 to 2004, they do have Downton Abbey.)

I do strongly suggest Netflix as the primary alternative. There’s actually a lot of duplication for what third-parties show on both, so for the third-party stuff, you don’t lose much by going to Netflix. Netflix even has a lot of BBC shows, my favorite being IT Crowd. They don’t have much from HBO, instead they tend to pick up Showtime series such as Dexter or Californiacation. And then there is obviously the originals. Netflix, realizing that they will be losing third-parties sooner than later, has more originals pretty much than all other streamers combined. Though there is a lot of give and take in quality these days. (Their early shows are still top notch and worth watching.)

Hulu, I feel, is a strong compliment to Netflix, though their advertisements on a paid service continues to bamboozle me. Still, they tend to pick up most shows off most networks, both old and new. They partner with NBC, ABC, and Fox, so there’s just a lot there. Like Amazon, their originals are fairly weak overall, even with the Handmaid’s Tale. And also like Amazon, they do offer add-ons like Showtime or HBO or even live TV.

If you absolutely must have HBO shows, HBO Go is out there. I don’t suggest it though. They have great originals and a good backlog, but the cost for what you get is actually quite terrible compared to the other 3.

I would also be remiss if I didn’t mention that, if you don’t mind ads, a lot of networks now just put their current stuff out on their websites for free. For instance, you can watch The Daily Show and South Park on Comedy Central’s website, or The Flash on The CW’s website. It’s actually surprising how much is free out there these days.

Video’s Ugly Step Child

Perhaps the one area of Amazon Video that is more difficult to cut out is Twitch. If you don’t watch Video Game Streams, then this isn’t a problem. But I do, so it is. Twitch is a juggernaut in the streaming realm, and they get stronger every year. And truthfully, I don’t have a great solution to it because of things like Overwatch League being exclusive to Twitch.

But I’ll give it a go all the same. My overall suggestion on replacement is to use instead. Why? First, I do think they are trying to come up with ways to innovate the streaming space in positive ways, and for the most part it works. They have low latency, their recent addition of paying out streamers for certain levels of “sparks” earning gives a solid way for streamers to monetize without costing viewers a dime works a lot better than anything Twitch has, and the interactivity can be pretty cool if used correctly. They also do A LOT to help streamers get noticed, they have several channels that randomly host, they feature smaller channels, and they even have an “up and coming” section. These are great for newbs.

Youtube also has been trying to enter the streaming space. And they also have low latency. I think they tend to give preference to live streams in search results too which helps. But, it is ridiculously difficult now to get and maintain partnerships as a new streamer, and they have fewer avenues of monetization even if you get there. Their interface is also just terrible. Pretty¬† much the only place that it is easy to find just random streams is by using there gaming app. Which is VERY specific and not overly casual friendly, especially if you are on the PC. I rate their interface as a whole similar to Amazon Video’s… a lot of clutter and hard to find what you are looking for. Odd for a search engine company that prides itself in its simple interface.

Mixer has flaws though which stop it from being better than Twitch in the first place. One, it just doesn’t have the traffic. That is not just viewers, that is streamers as well. They are kind of in a paradox here though, they can’t get viewers because they can’t get streamers because they can’t get viewers. It’s hard to be in that position. It also doesn’t have the plug-in support or the clear path to Partner that Twitch has. Twitch also has more avenues to earning money (bit purchasing and ties to amazon come to mind). Also, for some reason, the only way you can watch Mixer on TV is via Xbox One. No app that supports Roku, Fire Stick, or Chromecast. No app on PS4 or Swtich. It’s odd.

Still, as weird as it is to say… Mixer is the clear underdog. And I say that is weird because it’s Microsoft. The company that got the title of stock worth the most back from Apple. But in the competition of Google vs Amazon vs Microsoft… Microsoft feels like the clear underdog to me. And I want to support underdogs where it is worth it and I think Mixer has a lot going for it.

As an aside. I recently started Streaming on Mixer. So head on over to to hang with me sometime!

Pet Supplies

This one seems obvious to me, but maybe it isn’t to everyone else. But Chewy has made quite the name for themselves recently and have quietly carved out a chunk of Amazon’s business. For months, I have already been using Chewy primarily for all my pet needs. I buy cat toys, litter and food (both dry and wet). From Chewy, and I actually order pretty frequently because cats go through things fast.

Truthfully, I’m not entirely sure why I’ve moved to Chewy but I have, and so has all my friends, and looking at the recycling bin when I’m throwing out my boxes, a lot of others have as well. Both Amazon & Chewy have similar prices on their goods. Both give discounts if you subscribe. Chewy gives free shipping at $49 and it is 1-2 day shipping. You can get these things next day with Prime but at $25 you get free 3-5 day shipping.

I will say, $49 is a lot more difficult to attain than you might think. I usually hit like $43 with a huge bag of litter and 2 boxes of wetfood and then am struggling to figure out what to add to get the free shipping. The downside, I feel, with Chewy is that the boxes are heavy! They very rarely split those $49+ boxes, so you are lugging these huge boxes around, I have never ordered pet supplies from Amazon, but I am sure they have the same issue.

Discontinuing my Amazon Prime Membership

It’s November… What does that mean? Well for me, it means it’s time to renew my Amazon Prime membership. And you know what? I’m not going to do it. I’m dropping out of Amazon Prime, and what’s more I am earnestly going to attempt to stop shopping at Amazon entirely.

I have been contemplating ending my Prime membership anyways. And there are a few reasons for this. Amazon raised their price, and I’ll be honest, my budget could use the extra money so there is that. But really, once I started hearing rumors that Amazon has been contemplating opening a bank and starting their own UPS competitor, I started to realize that Amazon has become the modern day Wal-Mart in many bad ways. You know, for a long time, I thought it was quaint that Amazon was putting the hurt on Wal-Mart after years of Wal-Mart putting the hurt on everyone else… but in a way, even though I will not shop at Wal-Mart, I kind of am rooting for them as the small guy. Weird right? Because truth of the matter is, we need brick and mortar stores, and by saying we need them, what I do not mean is that we need Amazon to open brick and mortar stores (which they are). Moreover, we need more competition, both online, and off.

For the longest time, I was proud of what Amazon had become. One stop shop for everything. After all, this was the company that started online shopping in one sense. They helped bank roll many early websites with referral programs (something that they have stopped doing for smaller websites like mine that don’t get a ton of traffic). I loved them. And I returned that love with my money. I bought most everything from Amazon now, Games, clothes, electronics, food… seriously almost everything. I am becoming too reliant on them and this has, in reality, been terrible for competition at large. Other retailers, both online and off, have a hard time competing with them because they just don’t have the resources to.

Consider Toys ‘R Us… They were the last toy chain out there, I live in a decent sized town and only one toy store remains… an independent retailer that specializes in expensive hipster toys. Or Borders and several other book retailers. Even Barnes and Nobles is struggling in recent years. Best Buy is on its last legs. And no matter what you feel about these individual companies… them closing is NOT good for business, except if you are Amazon.

And so I was looking at the $120 a year program whose real cost was that I buy everything from them instead of diversifying… and I wonder… am I doing the right thing?

And you know… Amazon is actually making it easier on me. One of their bigger features of Prime was that you get a 20% discount on pre-ordering video games. I bit into that hard. And they pulled that away. They also pulled benefits that really didn’t lose them a ton of money like removing ads for Prime members on Twitch. Prime Pantry, which was never great, has gotten worse because it is now a subscription on top of Prime. And the other big thing… their video service… I’ve never been a huge fan of the originals they have offered, and their interface for finding videos has always easily been the worst of every online streaming service hands down. And that thing that got us all hooked originally years ago? You know, free next day shipping on everything? Well first of all, they got rid of paying to ship for the remainder of this year anyway, and even when they go back, free shipping is down to $25 instead of $35. And really the next day was always a meh benefit anyway. Part of the reason ordering everything on Amazon instead of going to say, Best Buy, was OK was because I made the conscious decision that I didn’t need the instant gratification of going into a store and getting it RIGHT NOW. I could wait to save money, and that remains true with waiting an extra day or two for shipping.

I’ll be honest, I’m a little surprised that at the same time that they are raising the price, they are removing features. I am certain that they made up for any perceived losses from the various Prime benefits from having people use them almost solely instead of another store. Prime features were Amazon’s loss leader. But now it seems that Amazon wants to make profit on even the yearly subscription and I am sure they have done studies to prove that if they take stuff away and raise prices, they won’t lose much business so why not.

I think I’m going to blog the next couple of weeks about my disconnect from Amazon. I want to blog about steps I’m taking to cut the cord, alternative stores I’m going to instead of Amazon. I’d like to cut the cord on Amazon Web Services too thanks to Hisan Minhaj (thanks bro), but I don’t think that is a possibility at this point considering that would mean also cutting out the likes of Netflix. Maybe that’s phase 2 or 3…